Recovery Sans Meetings

The following is a series of emails on the topic of staying clean, but not attending meetings. To me, the comments on how this is done are interesting and quite deep in terms of useful recovery strategies, hence I am reproducing the full list of emails here.

First, from Larry H.:

dear sos,

yesterday, tommy said...

Larry ... you should remember... you are competing with the "Big Meeting"

at 12 & 12 tomorrow night (friday) at 7 PM..

get ready... i feel a windy essay coming on

conflicting with the big meeting suits me fine (but remember, i am not sos)... i've never been to a big meeting... i tend to avoid any meetings over N = 15, but go often to gigantical noontime connection NA because my solid preference is for noon meetings... (size is one of the reasons i like both dra and sos)

we'll see how many turn out for the friday sos... it will sink or swim, depending on what it provides people... sos tulsa is now over five years old and my sense is that it is getting healthier and healthier... this comes in spite of the fact that a substantial number of individuals come to sos, attend regularly for a year or so, then elect to stop coming to meetings except for special events, e.g., birthday celebrations of oldtimer friends...

i could name four of these success stories off the top of my head... regular though far too infrequent contact with them tells me they are staying clean/sober, but have moved on with their lives without drugs or alcohol and without meetings... does that happen in other recovery programs?... probably, but i notice it more in sos

when i started in na in pensicola florida over 20 years ago there was one person, barry, who said many things that helped me make a decision to try to get clean... he was at nearly every meeting i went to... once i asked him if i needed to quit both alcohol and marijuana as i didn't drink alone (but inhaled lots of smoke that way)... his answer surprised me...

he said, "we don't know the answer... you may have to do some research on that"...

i thought, "hell, i'm a research scientist... i know how to do research"... so i made a commitment to try abstinence as a way of life... i decided i would try not using weed, alcohol, or any intoxicating substance... (i had figured out that if i got drunk i might make a bad decision about grass)... i didn't set a time limit, but knew it was going to be over a substantial period so i could learn conclusively whether staying clean was better than not staying clean... (surprisingly, i had very few cravings over the next several months)

years later i reflected on the enormous strength of barry in not telling me i needed to quit alcohol as well as gange... of course he knew alcohol caused problems for people... how could someone as active in na as he was not know?... nonetheless, he showed me tree-top tall respect by not telling me what to do

two years later i was traveling through pensicola and eagerly went to an old na meeting i had attended while getting clean... i ask other addicts there about barry... they said he had gone to treatment to help him stop going to meetings!... they added, however, that he was playing softball on an na team after the meeting and told me how to get there... i went just because i wanted to thank him for the help he'd given me... i found him easily... of course, he did not remember me, but we shook hands and i said thanks... he cordially accepted the thank you with continued blank looks, then went on with his game

what's the point? i think there are two points...

1) people do recover and do go on to successful, clean, sober

lives and that some do it without staying active in meetings...

2) sos is very, very self-empowering... the individual is free to

develop whatever program they believe will ensure they stay out

of active addiction/alcoholism...

as duaine m. of dallas says, there is no sos program... there are simply individuals in sos who each have their own program (my opinion is, if you want to have someone run your life, go back to aa or the catholic church or the military or to any authority who will remove you from the responsibility of making decisions for yourself, cf. eric fromme, "escape from freedom")

so, here is my challenge... those four people i mentioned who got clean, mostly through sos (though of course with other support sources, such as laureate) might consider emailing someting in about how they manage to stay clean without meetings... particularly, i would like to hear if you have a contract with yourself that you will rush back to treatment or rush back to sos if you encounter difficulty

you know who you are (and i am willing to name names... karry, kirk, chris, fitz)... i hate to put you on the spot (no i don't) , karry, kirk, chris, fitz, but write to us if you can say how you stay clean and stay healthy without meeting attendance...

better yet, come to our inaugural friday meeting tonight and tell us about it

thanks for the question, tommy... i really got off on that one big-time

from Larry H.

(to unsubscribe, just say so in a reply)

I send all emails "bcc" so your email address and name remain secure.

If you email me, keep in mind that I shall assume you agree to let me forward your comments to other folk unless you specify otherwise. If what you say seems very sensitive, however, I am likely to check with you before I forward what you've said

larry's three maxims:

don't drink or use no matter what;

go to meetings;

show respect for the inherent dignity and worth of every human being

first response came from Kirk D.:

kirk d. said (about how to stay clean and not go to meetings)...

I enjoyed the long essay about staying clean.

As you stated, I have an agreement with myself that if I feel that I am tempted to use or even start having passing thought of using then I get my butt to a meeting. I have changed my life so much since that time period when I was using and I hardly evening think about those days anymore. However, I have COMPLETELY changed my lifestyle. I work out at the gym, hang out with friends/family that don’t use and I even have changed where I live. I’m sure that I could find drugs if I wanted it bad enough but I enjoy my life the way that it is now and that is also a tool for not using. I feel bad about only coming to meetings around my birthday. I will try to come more often. I have a lot of respect for those that are still struggling with staying clean. It’s a hard road at first but remember that it will get better with time. Just remember to keep yourself busy. That was one of the first tools that I learned in recovery. The one thing besides keeping busy that helped me the most was changing my people, places and things. It really does make a BIG difference.

Thanks for letting me give my little speech. Keep encouraged everyone. You can do it!!!

Kirk D.

LH here... way to excellently go, kirk... your words are inspirational... and you are a charter friend of sos

Next, we heard from Blake H.:

blake h. said...

Hey Lar, Laura and I are moving to Dallas for a fabulous combination of Jobopportunities. I bought a card in Miami re: recovery that was really funnyand wanted to send to you and the group. I just want to thank all of you for the life changing effect you have had on my life. Chris forwarded your email and my only thoughts on the questions were:

1. Why wasn't I one of the four?

(well, that one is certainly on/against me... i did say four that i "regularly, but infrequently keep in touch with"... it is my bad that i haven't called you from time to time as i have with the other... i can say i had it in mind to do so, but kept putting it off (embarassing to admit)... i am delighted that you are still clean and proud and happy to add your name to the distinguished list of "clean and enjoying a new life with some thanks to sos"

2. The future is in your control and the past is past. You choose your own

destiny and define yourself.

It ain't brain surgery, but you do have to decide not to wallow in your

failings and find something positive to live for. Would you send me your

address so I may forward the card?

(larry hochhaus, 10730 e. 28th place, tulsa, ok 74129)

Later.

Blake H

thanks, blake... and sorry again i did not stay in better touch... congratulations on your new job... please ping me from time to time so you can stay on the "fabulous five sos success stories" list

should you ever need it, here is information on sos dallas... should you go to a meeting there, please convey my regards to duaine m., who is also webmaster for sos international, a killer recovery website with an astonishing number of excellent links (http://www.sossobriety.org/fastindex.htm)

SOS Dallas is a free thought group. Part of the World Wide Network of Save Our Selves. We take credit for our own recovery. There is no hidden agenda. My using other support groups will not in any way affect my standing in SOS
SOS Dallas Web Site is http://www.sosdallas.org
SOS International Web Site is http://www.sossobriety.org
SOS International E-mail Support Group is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sossaveourselves
We have Face to Face Meetings in Dallas
Thursday & Sunday 7:00 PM to 8:30 PM at Denny's Central & Meadow ask up front where the SOS meeting is being held as we meet in a back room of the restaurant with lots of privicy.
Duaine Metevia SOSDallas@hotmail.com SOS Dallas E-Support Group founder

thanks also, chris [aka clifton], for keeping blake in the loop...

(care to drop us a note to tell us how you did it?)

chris c. responded...

Hey Larry

It's simple for me. I do three things first.

Don't pick up, don't pick up, and don't pick up.

Then I do my job to the best of my ability.

I pay my bills when I'm supposed to.

I go to the gym and get other exercise. I eat as healthy

as I can. I take vitamins and supplements. I spend time with my

wife. I focus on doing the best I can for myself, my family,

my employer, and my clients. And like Kirk said, should I start feeling

vulnerable I will get to a meeting. SOS's self empowerment approach

has worked. I never want to go back to being the way I was.

Being accountable to the group was helpful, but ultimately

being accountable to myself is what it's all about.

There are many reasons I don't attend, some of which I prefer to keep

to myself. SOS was crucial in helping me learn how to live a clean

and prosperous life. I am grateful that it was there for me when I needed it

Just like the literature reads, some people may leave the group knowing

they are welcome back at any time. I guess I'm one of those people.

Chris

thanks, chris... you know you are always welcome and will be warmly greeted whenever you return

tommy m. next...

There are a lot of different types of addiction.. chemical dependency, and psychotic disfunction.. some people have the ability to make choices about their drug of choice, and some don't.!! It kinda goes along with the idea of the progression of your addiction.. or the addiction curve.. There was a time .. way back when, that I could have made the choice to just stop drinking and using and got away with it... (unless, I decided to Change my mind along the way).. which I did, by the way,... but, there are those of us that have gone past that stage!!

We loose the power of choice.. we are chemically dependent (addicted).. once that happens, I need help on a regular basis to reverse the thought process, and continue to be reminded that my fear should be transferred to that drug, rather than from everything else.

People that are chemically dependent, can't help how their mind plays tricks on them.. !!

Without a constant support system, of some kind, they are doomed to self-destruction.

I am constantly reminded of the guy that weighed (1000lbs) half a ton.. and the only relief he could find was to over eat, and drink.. what was he "thinking"!

Larry H. came back next...

LH here... tommy, i disagree with the "Without a constant support system, of some kind, they are doomed to self-destruction." assertion... it sounds preachy to say addicts without a constant support system are doomed... i.e., opinion rather than experience... my opinion, but i disagree and i think the fabulous five are illustrations of individual, not necessarily sos, success...

from kirk d.:

Congrats Blake on the move and new job. I’m jealous. I love Dallas (lived there for about 4 years). Hope that everything works out well for you. You were a constant member of SOS when I was going regularly and I really appreciated your input and example. Keep up the good work!!

next, larry h. again:

we seem to be getting into another of those heated email spam storms on the issue of can a person get clean, then stop going to meetings...

had i thought more i could have simply collected these responses and posted them on our sos tulsa blog... i'll try to do so & let you know when they're ready...

meanwhile, i plan to print a few copies for distribution this evening to those who don't have easy email access...

here's two more responses...

from blake...

I regret the tenor of this conversation. I desired to say thank you to all that helped transition me from a life of despair to a life of hope. I also feel that SOS, by its own admission, is a transition point of support for those seeking to redefine themselves. It certainly worked that way for me.

It is hard to accept the premise, "If you don't do what I do then you must not be clean."

A multitude of factors brought each of us to a stage where we simply need help. A multitude of support mechanisms exist to carry on with our new persona: Family, Peers, New Friends, Accomplishments, Success and yes, a group of people with similar experience to commiserate with.

There is a place in our lives to positively reinforce a new way of life and endeavor not to forget the past, but to put our old selves in the past.

I would encourage SOS to live up to its mantra; be supportive and encouraging of those that are ready to move to a bigger and better place in their lives.

I am honored to be of the "Fab Five," but I would rather think we a one of millions that have transformed their lives! As long as hope exists, there is a tomorrow.

Larry, Please send me an adrress so I may send my thank you card...

If any care to respond directly, my contact info is:

Blake Hendrix

saltmineconsulting.com

3754 East 59th Place

Tulsa, Oklahoma 74135

918.749.8494

Fax 918.749.5946

blakehendrix@cox.net

www.saltmineconsulting.com

Strategic Decisions for Small Business: It's Just Noodles, This Ain't No Trattoria

also, pam said...

Hi Everyone!

I myself find that I much prefer the smaller size of our SOS group. I feel more comfortable there and I really like the way our meetings are held. I have got more out of these meetings then I have any NA meetings I have attended. I do like NA but I do consider SOS to be my "home" group. I am sorry I had to miss Wed. group. I will be there this evening. Fitz, I sure hope you can come, I have missed you a great deal.... and Jerry? Will you be there? Chris......are you out there? It would be great to see you too! Not only do I consider SOS to be my "home" group ~ I consider all my fellow SOSers my 'HOMEYS" LOL

Looking forward to this evenings meeting.

Hugs,

Pam

finally (as of 5:15, friday 4-6) ari c. said...

Well, let me reply. This list is getting wonderfully feisty!

Great things said from everyone, and I do admit it is refreshing to see free discussion of certain things in the SOS forum. Within the parameters of other recovery groups, though, such free thinking is, shall we say, discouraged.

I have found great experience, strength and hope in AA, NA, SOS, and DRA. Each has their pros and cons. I try to keep in mind that recovery philosophy, ala Bill W. and Dr. Bob. is still relatively new in human history. A few generations is not very long for a species (homo sapiens) that has been walking the planet for 200,000 years.

Surrender is still difficult for most humans, and downright alien for westerners (European). But it doesn't really need to be.

Surrender is simply to quit fighting. It is passive. It is not an

action; it is the lack of needless of action. Everything about Western Culture has pounded into us the very opposite of this, so we are undoing some heavy behavioral hardwiring.

Each of the recovery programs I mentioned has its own "collective knowledge," most from the texts, but some of it passed orally. Nowhere in the Big Book of AA does it mention the word "co-dependent," but this concept is shared and understood by most, who have been around a bit.

I sense in this list a very human desire to define and analyze what we need to do, or have experienced, and I have done the same myself.

But I clung to the concept of "intelligence" through most of my life, but I have had, as a matter of self-preservation, find other ways of defining it. Intelligence is the ability to solve problems, but it is also the ability to find serenity (essential for my survival) which is what I seek most days.

It is also realizing that our words, though powerful if chosen and used well, are limited. My Serenity is something that words don't describe fully; words are not needed.

But then, perhaps my allergies are triggering a hallucinogenic

mushroom/microdot/blotter flashback. It could happen. :) But I don't think so. (But then, if I were in the midst of the mother of All Flashbacks, I don't exactly have an ideal perspective. So let me know what you think. :)

At any rate, I do love, without condition, everyone of you; this is the ultimate self love, as I see us as one. It has only been recently that I have been able to say so, and believe it. I'm either getting recovery at long last, or it is a by product of becoming an Old Fart. Its probably some of both.

Be Well, Galactic Brethren,

See you at the Big Meeting

ari c.

david h. said...

I sure won't be at the big meeting, have been many times before. But I will

miss the glassy eyed head nodding that goes on there. It scares me to think

that some spiritual old timer may just think its time for all of us to go

meet his higher power, and who knows what might be put into the coffee,

remember Jones town? Large religious groups are known to be prone to what

scientists call "maddening of crowds" oh well !

Back to recovery. Here is a quote from Albert Einstein "Strange is our

situation here on earth. Each of us comes for a short visit, not knowing

why, yet sometimes seeming to divine a purpose. From the standpoint of daily

life, however, there is one thing we do know: that man is here for the sake

of other men - above all for those upon whose smiles and well -being our own

happiness depends."

Sounds like he was one of us.

David H. Davidfhuff@hotmail.com

918 798-7146 Tulsa Oklahoma

and david said...

Wow

I guess s.o.s. is the hot place to be, I surly think so. If I would have

listened to the 12ers I would believe, the day I decide not to attend

meetings anymore I would relapse or burn in hell. I know it says right on

the wall work the steps or die.. Fuck all that.. who in the hell do they

think they are man...

Wow this recovery gets better all the time, I soon hope to never go to

another meeting of any kind ever again.Think of the gas i would save. Thank

you guys who have done it, your my hero's.. And thank S.O.S. for this

forum.. Here's what I have learned in recovery.

1. Question everything

2. Never seek to censor or cut yourself off from: dissent; always respect

the right of others to disagree with you.

3.Form independent opinions on the basis of your own reason and experiance;

do not allow yourself to be led blindly by others.

4. Value the future on a timescale longer than your own.

5. live with a sense of joy and wonder.

6 Always seek to be learning something new.

7. Test all things; always check your ideas against the facts,and be ready

to discard even a cherished belief if it does not conform to them.

That's what i wish i could do.

David H. Davidfhuff@hotmail.com

918 798-7146 Tulsa Oklahoma

later, tommy m. said...

No..Larry, it's experience I'm talking about; it's not preachy either!! I went through a treatment center in 1981, that didn't require a constant support system (except for the first year); it took me about 3 years to relapse.. but, I did, so I'm talking about my own experience! I can't say for sure, about everyone, but I've read in the AA big book how it happened to others exactly the same way.

I also don't hold with the idea that just because you "say" you are well, or past the addiction, you are!!; That sounds like some stuff I've heard in churches and Religions; those people usually usually last somewhere under 2 years; in my experiences!; I can tell you about quite a few of my sponseree's that proved that to me!!; So, the idea of sponsership is a constant support system; among other things.

It's not very wise to avoid something that has proven to work.. in exchange for your "own" big ideas.

For me, to chance a relapse, is to die a torturing death; and it's not the dying that worry's me, it's the torture until I die That's also where I get my little logo, "Don't believe everything you think."

larry here...

tommy, your later email told me you may have fixed the problem with your emails... thank goodness... the last one was so very hard to read (i cleaned it up here, however)...

you've made some interesting points...

i appologize for calling you preachy... i just thought you were telling others how to work their program instead of just saying what happened to you... i'm still not sure, however, how you can claim someone is going to relapse because they've stopped attending meetings... people who stop going to meetings do relapse, but sufficient conditions are not necessary conditions

i also believe just because one has become dependent on alcohol or drugs does not (to me) suggest that one must instead become dependent on something else... as far as the fabulous five are concerned, time will tell i guess... at least they stay in touch from time to time so we know it is working for them...

wouldn't it be ironic if this feature were a difference between 12-step and sos approaches? actually, however, i would not be surprised to learn that many who get clean/sober via 12-step support, then drop out yet continued not drinking or drugging

i'm just about certain that it's not true that the only way one can maintain sobriety is by maintaining activity in 12-step or other meetings... claims otherwise remind me a lot of fundamentalist forms of christianity that say you can only get to heaven through christ and that if you don't go through christ, you can't be saved

i once read in a book by daniel robinson called, "an intellectual history of psychology" (http://www.amazon.com/Intellectual-History-Psychology-Daniel-Robinson/dp/0299148440) in which he said the three main ideas of christianity were

1) anyone can join the church and christian way of life

(i.e., egalitarian access... christianity appealed to slaves as well as the ruling class)

2) anyone can contemplate and try to carry out god's will on earth

3) christ died for our sins

when i read the third characteristic of christian belief in robinson's description i went gakk!... i concluded i was at best two-thirds christian (for a time, back in the days when both aa and na ended every meeting with a christian prayer, i would say the lord's prayer 2 out of every 3 times... oh the mental gymnastics we go through to cling to a new way of life... now if i'm in that situation i just look at others around the circle to see who is both praying and looking at others around the circle)

my point is this... i don't think it is possible to predict who will relapse and who won't... i've seen many i thought were solid in their recovery who went right back at it... i've also seen many i thought would never make who flourished...

my 2 cents worth

larry h

connie p. responded to my remarks to tommy...

first what i said, then her reply

LH here... tommy, i disagree with the "Without a constant support system, of some kind, they are doomed to self-destruction." assertion... it sounds preachy to say addicts without a constant support system are doomed... i.e., opinion rather than experience... my opinion, but i disagree and i think the fabulous five are illustrations of individual, not necessarily sos, success...

Larry, I would agree with you in principle that all addicts without a support system are NOT doomed, but I think Tommy said some addicts, depending on the continuum he referred to earlier in the paragraph. I think he was trying to speak to his own feelings and choices based upon his own experience, not a general principle. But I could be wrong. I’ve tried to give up mind-reading with limited success. ;-)

My own experience is that many addicts whom I have personally known and loved with years of clean time have relapsed and some have died. I’ve been to too many funerals of people I love, and I expect that you have also. Good, wonderful people.

For me, the vicarious experience through observing the problems of others keeps me going to meetings, even with considerable clean time. And I have the great desire to give back to others the recovery that was given to me so freely. But then, this is MY personal experience and decision. As they say, “Do whatever works for you.” I would never foist my choices upon another addict in recovery (it might kill them) and would never insist that everyone needs meetings for the rest of their lives. I simply know that I choose to continue to attend and the reasons for my choice, which I will share with others who ask.

Since my grandson Tanner told me over the weekend that I score (on a ten-point scale) a mere 7.5 for bitchiness but a full 10 points on lecturing, I will close now. ;-)

Thanks for listening,

Sister C

Connie K. P.

connie p. also said...

I agree with Blake 100%.

Best to all,

Sister C

"No trees were killed in the making of this e-mail......however, a large number of electrons were horribly inconvenienced."